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Hero Up!

There was a Twitter conversation this morning regarding Paragon fights taking significantly longer than Heroic ones. While obviously the sheer number of choices is an issue, that’s a built-in for the game, so we have to accept it and deal with it.

Besides telling your players to hurry up, I had an idea a few months ago that I shared on the WotC community board (but I don’t remember where it was, so I’m repeating it here.)

At levels where a PC “replaces” an encounter power with a new Paragon Path/Epic Destiny power, that PC can then move that encounter power into one of its at-will slots. Someone made the argument that there are some at-wills that wind up better than encounter powers, so obviously a player shouldn’t be forced to make the replacement, just as you’re not technically forced to replace your encounter powers with your PP powers.

My two groups are still very far from being able to test this, so I don’t know if it works, but I’d love to hear thoughts on this, as well as any playtesting if you try it out!

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This entry was posted Saturday, 26 June, 2010 at 1:10 pm
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AlioTheFool has been "around" D&D for 25 years, going back to the old "Red Box." However, having no one to play with, he simply spent ridiculous amounts of time creating worlds, adventures, and stories. After a D&D "vacation" from high school until around 10 years ago, Neverwinter Nights brought AlioTheFool back to the game. A few years later he found his way to the tabletop via the D&D Miniatures game. As that game wound down from official support, he bought a 4e starter set and gave the game another shot. After being invited by a fellow Minis game player to join his home 4e game, he progressed from player to now DM.

4 Responses to “Hero Up!”

  • I’m not sure if I’m misreading your post, but Paragon Path/Epic Destiny powers don’t replace your normal powers… they are bonus powers. Re-read the section on Paragon Paths in the PHB pg 53 for more info.

    You do replace your earlier encounter/daily powers in the paragon and epic tiers, but those are independent of the PP/ED framework

Dr. Confoundo on June 26th, 2010 at 11:02 pm

  • Right, there are bonus powers that come with the PP/ED that are automatic and in addition to your total powers. The second piece you mentioned is what I am referring to, but I did misstate what I meant.

    I should have wrote tier, rather than path/destiny. For example, at level 13 you may replace, say, your 3rd level encounter attack power with a new level 13 encounter attack power. With my suggestion, you would then slide that 3rd level encounter attack power into one of your at-will slots.

    This makes roleplaying sense to me as well. Why would a hero who learned to throw a Shock Sphere every fight choose to “forget” how to cast it, yet simultaneously choose to remember how to cast a Scorching Burst? One could assume that a Wizard of “paragon” status has practiced that Shock Sphere enough to become relatively proficient with it. Given that Shock Sphere hits an area significantly larger, with the same range, doing double the damage (albeit of a different type) it would seem a competent wizard would make sure to practice it enough to cast it at will.

    Sorry for the confusion, and thanks for the call out for clarification!

AlioTheFool on June 27th, 2010 at 10:27 am

  • This is interesting. It can definitely speed up combats in terms of what damage output, but why not then do the solution of upping monster damage and lowering monster hp? I do think it is a cool variant, but it won’t get you, I think, the speed that you’re looking for.

    Paragon and Epic slow down due to effect chains and crazy free action and immediate action madness. A lot goees into each turn. To me the best way to deal with it is to embrace the fights. Adopt a philosphyof having no fight that is not important, and then make less but more compelling fights. In my experience, awesome has no time limit. If you made an awesome fight that took three hours, would players really complain?

    If you must speed it up, I think the best way is encounter design. a great pattern for a dangerous yet speeady encounter –lots of minions, one or two elites, 1 or more environmental hazards/traps. There are a lot of ways you can use that, and the encounters will be much faster.

gamefiend on June 27th, 2010 at 2:11 pm

  • @gamefiend Good advice there. Encounter design is a good way to combat grindiness. Personally, I’ve yet to experience grind that wasn’t the fault of my players, and both of my games are only in Heroic tier. My solution is admittedly theoretical.

    What I like about my idea over the half-HP/x2 damage is that I think it would make the players feel more powerful. As in my example above, one could assume a wizard would prefer to “remember” how to throw a Shock Sphere more often over a less powerful Scorching Burst. Plus, this solution has more of a feeling of the heroes doing better bashing over battles just ending faster.

    One thing you mention that I try to tell everyone about: use minions! Great advice. Throwing extra ones in a fight are good, expecially if you have controllers in the party.

AlioTheFool on June 28th, 2010 at 6:30 am

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